OK!!! Who Still Wants a Porche?? Or a BMW For That Matter..
#11
Senior Member
Posts like a Corvette
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Ontario
Posts: 1,253
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
![Tamara is on a distinguished road](https://www.gmforum.com/images/reputation/reputation_pos.gif)
![Default](https://www.gmforum.com/images/icons/icon1.gif)
Isn't Saab GM owned now!?
[quote="speedyguy"]
I will AGREE with you there, TY. IMO, BMW'* are hyped up way too much...same with Mercedes. I also think their exterior design is godUGLY buuuut that'* a different story.
Alright. Now we want to compare safety data. Well, unfortuately, there IS no listing for a BMW fullsize car. So I'm going to have to compare 1995 european cars such as lexus for fullsize (that'* all that'* there, I guess europe dosn't believe in full size!)
1995 Bonneville: 5/3 (driver/passenger)
1995 Lexus GS 300 4-DR. 3/3
(smaller class)
1995 Volkswagen Golf III 4-DR. 3/3
1995 Volkswagen Jetta III 4-DR. 3/3
or look here.
http://www.crashtest.com/bmw/ie.htm
http://www.crashtest.com/pontiac/ie.htm
Some of them are similar, but overall the bonneville has more "excellent" marks than the BMW. (I thought BMW made more cars...not a huge selection they have) I guess it is just a personal opinion, because from what i've seen from the crash tests I'm not convinced that the BMW is better for saftey than my bonneville...or any bonneville, for that matter.
And BTW...a just FYI, the BMW in the above picture had a ranking of either poor or marginal. Maybe even "acceptable" I can't tell what year it is...there'* not enough left of it. And as for the porche, hmm. I can't even find a safety rating for it. heh all i can say is that they dubbed it right when they called it the 911 (hehe)
I guess like Cameron, I should say I am not trying to start a domestic vs. import war here (there was not my intention with those pictures!) I'm just defending GM'* cars as equal, not lesser than.
[quote="speedyguy"]
rather die in a 4-500hp Bonneville than a boring old BMW. Nice car but boring.
I will AGREE with you there, TY. IMO, BMW'* are hyped up way too much...same with Mercedes. I also think their exterior design is godUGLY buuuut that'* a different story.
Alright. Now we want to compare safety data. Well, unfortuately, there IS no listing for a BMW fullsize car. So I'm going to have to compare 1995 european cars such as lexus for fullsize (that'* all that'* there, I guess europe dosn't believe in full size!)
1995 Bonneville: 5/3 (driver/passenger)
1995 Lexus GS 300 4-DR. 3/3
(smaller class)
1995 Volkswagen Golf III 4-DR. 3/3
1995 Volkswagen Jetta III 4-DR. 3/3
or look here.
http://www.crashtest.com/bmw/ie.htm
http://www.crashtest.com/pontiac/ie.htm
Some of them are similar, but overall the bonneville has more "excellent" marks than the BMW. (I thought BMW made more cars...not a huge selection they have) I guess it is just a personal opinion, because from what i've seen from the crash tests I'm not convinced that the BMW is better for saftey than my bonneville...or any bonneville, for that matter.
And BTW...a just FYI, the BMW in the above picture had a ranking of either poor or marginal. Maybe even "acceptable" I can't tell what year it is...there'* not enough left of it. And as for the porche, hmm. I can't even find a safety rating for it. heh all i can say is that they dubbed it right when they called it the 911 (hehe)
I guess like Cameron, I should say I am not trying to start a domestic vs. import war here (there was not my intention with those pictures!) I'm just defending GM'* cars as equal, not lesser than.
#12
Senior Member
True Car Nut
![Default](https://www.gmforum.com/images/icons/icon1.gif)
True that some European car companies are more innovative than the North American.. but they also have the Autobahn to deal with ( ahh.. the luxury of no speed limit ), that allowed their engineer to push even more.
However, have you seen the insurance and replacement cost of imported cars ?? I mean maintainance changes such as original rotors and belts for instance are most cases a lot more expensive then their domestic counter - parts. If I had the money and luxury.. ( ha ha ha.. I wish ) then it might be a different story.. but if I had all that.. I"d throw a jet engine or two on the Bonnie...
my 2 cents ( before tax..
ha ha ha )
P.*.
I thought Lexus was japanese ?? Weren't they part of Toyota at one time ??
However, have you seen the insurance and replacement cost of imported cars ?? I mean maintainance changes such as original rotors and belts for instance are most cases a lot more expensive then their domestic counter - parts. If I had the money and luxury.. ( ha ha ha.. I wish ) then it might be a different story.. but if I had all that.. I"d throw a jet engine or two on the Bonnie...
my 2 cents ( before tax..
![Roll Eyes](https://www.gmforum.com/gm/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif)
P.*.
I thought Lexus was japanese ?? Weren't they part of Toyota at one time ??
#13
Senior Member
Posts like a Turbo
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Torrington, CT
Posts: 267
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
![csprague is on a distinguished road](https://www.gmforum.com/images/reputation/reputation_pos.gif)
![Default](https://www.gmforum.com/images/icons/icon1.gif)
Originally Posted by Drifter420
P.*.
I thought Lexus was japanese ?? Weren't they part of Toyota at one time ??
I thought Lexus was japanese ?? Weren't they part of Toyota at one time ??
My dad has a '00 ES300, it'* simply a rebadged, fancy Camry. Most of the Lexus models here I believe are available in Japan as Toyotas. For instance, the Lexus IS300 is the Toyota Altezza in Japan (and that'* where the name for the ghey lights came from, in case you were wondering...)
#14
Senior Member
Posts like a Corvette
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Ontario
Posts: 1,253
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
![Tamara is on a distinguished road](https://www.gmforum.com/images/reputation/reputation_pos.gif)
![Default](https://www.gmforum.com/images/icons/icon1.gif)
[quote="csprague"]
uote]
Oh come on. Give me SOME CREDIT...it'* the only car listed that WASN'T domestic!! lol
Originally Posted by Drifter420
P.*.
I thought Lexus was japanese ?? Weren't they part of Toyota at one time ??
I thought Lexus was japanese ?? Weren't they part of Toyota at one time ??
Oh come on. Give me SOME CREDIT...it'* the only car listed that WASN'T domestic!! lol
#15
Senior Member
Certified GM nut
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Kalamazoo, MI
Posts: 1,839
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
![95BonnevilleSESC is on a distinguished road](https://www.gmforum.com/images/reputation/reputation_pos.gif)
![Default](https://www.gmforum.com/images/icons/icon1.gif)
Terminator:
I believe you missed my point, German engineering or not, a larger car TENDS to be safer than a smaller car (not always the case but most of the time). As for the "apples to apples", the comparison was not based on same year, or whether it was domestic or import, but rather SIZE of the vehicle. I was pointing out that just because something is well engineered doesn't mean it is going to be the safest.
You also wrote...
WORST VEHICLES 1990-1994
Geo Tracker
Chevrolet Corvette
Isuzu Amigo
Hyundai Scoupe
Ford Mustang
Ford Festiva
Pontiac Lemans
Geo Metro
Ford Escort
Chevrolet S10 pickup
Funny how almost all the best are imports, and all the worst are domestic.
Ok, lets move up a few years to 1997:
Which vehicles score best?
J.D. Power and Associates: Initial quality survey, 3 months - 1997 list
Compact: Saturn SL, Toyota Tercel (tie)
Entry midsize: Nissan Altima
Premium midsize: Honda Accord
Sporty: Acura Integra
Entry luxury: Infiniti I30
Premium luxury: Lexus LS400
Compact pickup: Toyota Tacoma
Minivan: Honda Odyssey
Midsize sport utility: Infiniti QX4
Full-size sport utility: Lexus LX450
Full-size pickup: Ford F-series
Thats Funny, I see ONE Domestic vehicle, a pickup truck.
I count six (6) imports on the 1990-1994 worst list. Lets count them together shall we?
Geo Tracker (made by Suzuki--Japan)
Isuzu Amigo (Japan)
Hyundai Scoupe (Korea)
Ford Festiva (Various countries including Japan and the US)
Pontiac Lemans (Korea)
Geo Metro (made by Suzuki--Japan)
I believe the appropriate characteristic these cars all have in common is that they are all subcompact (tiny) cars
A larger car--regardless of where it is made--is generally safer.
As for the 1997 list, since when is Tennessee a foreign country?? You know, the state below Kentucky and above Alabama and Mississippi??? Last I knew, the civil war resolved that issue in 1865. The Saturn is not an import.
I agree with you on many points, but Airbags were tested as early as 1973 in GM automobiles, AMC had AWD/4WD before it was purchased by Chrysler, (Chrysler was also using AWD in many of their later first generation mini vans), and as Tamara mentioned above, SAAB and Volvo are now owned/partially owned by GM. GM also has Joint ventures with Isuzu, Toyota, and Deawoo. Ford owns/has joint ventures with Jaguar and Mazda, Chrysler is now owned by Diamler-Chrysler (Mercedes-Benz) and has joint ventures with Lotus, Lamborgini, and Mitsubishi. There are others.
Whether a vehicle is made domestically or not has absolutely no bearing on whether it is safe as many "domestics" are assembled/designed elsewhere, and many "imports" are assembled/designed in the U.*. and Canada.
One final note...the U.*. is slower to incorporate some of the cutting-edge technologies because the Federal Government requires very rigorous testing ranging from emissions to safety. That is why airbags, although tested early in the '70'* took so long to appear in production vehicles. It is a good thing, too. If the early versions of Supplemental Restraint devises were implemented, they would have had the same effect on adults as the current ones have on toddlers.
I do, however, understand your frustration with over generalizations and attacks on perfectly well engineered vehicles...regardless of the manufacturer.
I believe you missed my point, German engineering or not, a larger car TENDS to be safer than a smaller car (not always the case but most of the time). As for the "apples to apples", the comparison was not based on same year, or whether it was domestic or import, but rather SIZE of the vehicle. I was pointing out that just because something is well engineered doesn't mean it is going to be the safest.
You also wrote...
WORST VEHICLES 1990-1994
Geo Tracker
Chevrolet Corvette
Isuzu Amigo
Hyundai Scoupe
Ford Mustang
Ford Festiva
Pontiac Lemans
Geo Metro
Ford Escort
Chevrolet S10 pickup
Funny how almost all the best are imports, and all the worst are domestic.
Ok, lets move up a few years to 1997:
Which vehicles score best?
J.D. Power and Associates: Initial quality survey, 3 months - 1997 list
Compact: Saturn SL, Toyota Tercel (tie)
Entry midsize: Nissan Altima
Premium midsize: Honda Accord
Sporty: Acura Integra
Entry luxury: Infiniti I30
Premium luxury: Lexus LS400
Compact pickup: Toyota Tacoma
Minivan: Honda Odyssey
Midsize sport utility: Infiniti QX4
Full-size sport utility: Lexus LX450
Full-size pickup: Ford F-series
Thats Funny, I see ONE Domestic vehicle, a pickup truck.
I count six (6) imports on the 1990-1994 worst list. Lets count them together shall we?
Geo Tracker (made by Suzuki--Japan)
Isuzu Amigo (Japan)
Hyundai Scoupe (Korea)
Ford Festiva (Various countries including Japan and the US)
Pontiac Lemans (Korea)
Geo Metro (made by Suzuki--Japan)
I believe the appropriate characteristic these cars all have in common is that they are all subcompact (tiny) cars
A larger car--regardless of where it is made--is generally safer.
As for the 1997 list, since when is Tennessee a foreign country?? You know, the state below Kentucky and above Alabama and Mississippi??? Last I knew, the civil war resolved that issue in 1865. The Saturn is not an import.
I agree with you on many points, but Airbags were tested as early as 1973 in GM automobiles, AMC had AWD/4WD before it was purchased by Chrysler, (Chrysler was also using AWD in many of their later first generation mini vans), and as Tamara mentioned above, SAAB and Volvo are now owned/partially owned by GM. GM also has Joint ventures with Isuzu, Toyota, and Deawoo. Ford owns/has joint ventures with Jaguar and Mazda, Chrysler is now owned by Diamler-Chrysler (Mercedes-Benz) and has joint ventures with Lotus, Lamborgini, and Mitsubishi. There are others.
Whether a vehicle is made domestically or not has absolutely no bearing on whether it is safe as many "domestics" are assembled/designed elsewhere, and many "imports" are assembled/designed in the U.*. and Canada.
One final note...the U.*. is slower to incorporate some of the cutting-edge technologies because the Federal Government requires very rigorous testing ranging from emissions to safety. That is why airbags, although tested early in the '70'* took so long to appear in production vehicles. It is a good thing, too. If the early versions of Supplemental Restraint devises were implemented, they would have had the same effect on adults as the current ones have on toddlers.
I do, however, understand your frustration with over generalizations and attacks on perfectly well engineered vehicles...regardless of the manufacturer.
#16
Senior Member
Posts like a Turbo
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 334
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
![CDecker is on a distinguished road](https://www.gmforum.com/images/reputation/reputation_pos.gif)
![Default](https://www.gmforum.com/images/icons/icon1.gif)
As for the 1997 list, since when is Tennessee a foreign country?? You know, the state below Kentucky and above Alabama and Mississippi??? Last I knew, the civil war resolved that issue in 1865. The Saturn is not an import.
![Roll Eyes](https://www.gmforum.com/gm/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif)
I was looking more at the tercel, but ok, I'll give you that one.
I'm not arguing on this anymore because its pointless, and actually pretty stupid. I have my own opinion, and with the number of automobile accidents I've seen personally, all I'm going to say is that no matter what the wonderful US government rates modern imports, I would MUCH rather be in a Volkswagon Jetta over a Saturn or ANY domestic car of that size, 5-Series BMW over a Bonneville, etc.. in a serious crash ANYDAY. The reasoning for it is much deeper than anyone on this forum could possibly understand, but I will believe in it for the rest of my life.
The Bonneville is a safe car, I'm not arguing that, but would I rather be in a Bonneville over a BMW or Mercedes of equal size?? HELL FREKIN NO !! If you would rather, thats your opinion, and your entitled to it.
Volvo are now owned/partially owned by GM
Chrysler, since in many peoples minds they are the WORST of the big 3. Talk about build quality?? And POS Cars / Transmissions ?? Driven a Carvan lately and NOT had a Tranny problem? Better yet, driven a NEON lately? Pfffft. One big snapped together erector set of plastic. 2002 Neon vs. 2002 VW Jetta If you'd rather be in the Neon, go for it, I wish you the best.
I believe you missed my point, German engineering or not, a larger car TENDS to be safer than a smaller car (not always the case but most of the time). As for the "apples to apples", the comparison was not based on same year, or whether it was domestic or import, but rather SIZE of the vehicle.
I was pointing out that just because something is well engineered doesn't mean it is going to be the safest.
![Roll Eyes](https://www.gmforum.com/gm/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif)
![Roll Eyes](https://www.gmforum.com/gm/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif)
A small Porsche or BMW may be safer than other small cars, but they are still no match for a Bonneville.
This is my last post on this topic.
#17
Senior Member
Posts like a Corvette
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Ontario
Posts: 1,253
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
![Tamara is on a distinguished road](https://www.gmforum.com/images/reputation/reputation_pos.gif)
![Default](https://www.gmforum.com/images/icons/icon1.gif)
Originally Posted by Terminator
I'm not arguing on this anymore because its pointless
Originally Posted by Terminator
The Bonneville is a safe car, I'm not arguing that, but would I rather be in a Bonneville over a BMW or Mercedes of equal size?? HELL FREKIN NO !!
Originally Posted by Terminator
What I'm saying is, now trying comparing your newer bigger car to something the same year and size made by Volvo, Saab, BMW or Mercedes and see what happens.
#19
Senior Member
Posts like a Corvette
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Ontario
Posts: 1,253
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
![Tamara is on a distinguished road](https://www.gmforum.com/images/reputation/reputation_pos.gif)
![Default](https://www.gmforum.com/images/icons/icon1.gif)
Originally Posted by Drifter420
CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG
... HA HA HA HA HA ![Wink](https://www.gmforum.com/gm/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif)
![Crying or Very sad](https://www.gmforum.com/gm/images/smilies/icon_cry.gif)
![Wink](https://www.gmforum.com/gm/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif)
![Wink](https://www.gmforum.com/gm/images/smilies/wink.gif)
#20
Senior Member
True Car Nut
![Default](https://www.gmforum.com/images/icons/icon1.gif)
Originally Posted by Tamara
Originally Posted by Drifter420
CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG
... HA HA HA HA HA ![Wink](https://www.gmforum.com/gm/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif)
![Crying or Very sad](https://www.gmforum.com/gm/images/smilies/icon_cry.gif)
![Wink](https://www.gmforum.com/gm/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif)
![Wink](https://www.gmforum.com/gm/images/smilies/wink.gif)
![Embarassed](https://www.gmforum.com/gm/images/smilies/icon_redface.gif)
![Twisted Evil](https://www.gmforum.com/gm/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif)