00 - 02 Bonneville: Consumer Reports Worst Buy
07-07-2007, 08:40 AM
#11
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Originally Posted by agrazela
Consumer Reports has to wait a few years before they give a reliability rating to a model year. Rest assured that in 2 years the H-bodies up to 2004 will also be on the "avoid" list.
I hate to say it, but GM does deserve to have these cars on Consumer Reports' "neutral" to "poor" reliability list because of their decision to use plastic LIM gaskets and unsleeved plastic UIM (up to '05)...to the typical consumer who doesn't know about the issue and doesn't do his own engine teardowns, these are problems that, no matter how well-maintained the car is, will afflict almost every single one of them, will lead to a stranding, expensive repairs, and often a destroyed engine.
In addition to the engine'* internal coolant issues, there'* GM'* decision to use substandard input shaft seals, and poorly designed pressure control solenoid and unhardened 4th gear shaft in the 4T6x transaxle (up to '03, anyway).
Alas, for an extra probably $30 to $50 per car in properly engineered parts, GM could have put out one of the most reliable engines and FWD drivetrains ever...instead, they get put on the "avoid" list and surely cost themselves tens of millions (possibly billions!) of dollars in warranty service and lost repeat business over the last 10-15 years.
All that being said, I do agree that Consumer Reports is an Asian imports fan rag, and that the GM H-bodies are a great value used...if you know what to watch out for (which, BTW, I really did not until joining this forum 6 months ago).
I hate to say it, but GM does deserve to have these cars on Consumer Reports' "neutral" to "poor" reliability list because of their decision to use plastic LIM gaskets and unsleeved plastic UIM (up to '05)...to the typical consumer who doesn't know about the issue and doesn't do his own engine teardowns, these are problems that, no matter how well-maintained the car is, will afflict almost every single one of them, will lead to a stranding, expensive repairs, and often a destroyed engine.
In addition to the engine'* internal coolant issues, there'* GM'* decision to use substandard input shaft seals, and poorly designed pressure control solenoid and unhardened 4th gear shaft in the 4T6x transaxle (up to '03, anyway).
Alas, for an extra probably $30 to $50 per car in properly engineered parts, GM could have put out one of the most reliable engines and FWD drivetrains ever...instead, they get put on the "avoid" list and surely cost themselves tens of millions (possibly billions!) of dollars in warranty service and lost repeat business over the last 10-15 years.
All that being said, I do agree that Consumer Reports is an Asian imports fan rag, and that the GM H-bodies are a great value used...if you know what to watch out for (which, BTW, I really did not until joining this forum 6 months ago).
07-07-2007, 10:06 AM
#12
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X3!!!, Boostys comment is very relevant and made me chuckle, BUT when things like the Moonroof wind deflectors break 2nd time closing, cigarette lighters weld themselves in the socket and blow out the fuse, body panels separate in 2 weeks of driving, trunk leaks, trunk access panel blows apart in your hands, fog lamps burn out in 2 weeks, and cheap plastic pop rivets that hold the inner fenderwells on keep falling out. It just isnt funny anymore. GM has dropped the Ball into the 2000'* and it has just gotten worse. They deserve to lose the billions of dollars and millions of customers. I, a lifetime GM buyer, am one of them lost. Now that Pontiac and GM is relying more and more on Holden, I am very curious as to the quality of these Australian Imports. And I have no faith in the "rumors" that the G8 may eventually come to an American Plant. It to expensive to build here, they are scrambling to keep what plants they have left in North America as it is. They just cant afford it anymore. They are financially hemorrhaging . If you are dead set on buying American, look for some awesome deals on '07'* in the near future. I have been reading a new round of rebates and incentives are coming out as they try to keep their head above water. RIP Detroit. You were great. but nothing lasts forever. Especially patience for substandard quality and workmanship.
07-07-2007, 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by GXP Venom
X3!!!, Boostys comment is very relevant and made me chuckle, BUT when things like the Moonroof wind deflectors break 2nd time closing, cigarette lighters weld themselves in the socket and blow out the fuse, body panels separate in 2 weeks of driving, trunk leaks, trunk access panel blows apart in your hands, fog lamps burn out in 2 weeks, and cheap plastic pop rivets that hold the inner fenderwells on keep falling out. It just isnt funny anymore. GM has dropped the Ball into the 2000'* and it has just gotten worse. They deserve to lose the billions of dollars and millions of customers. I, a lifetime GM buyer, am one of them lost. Now that Pontiac and GM is relying more and more on Holden, I am very curious as to the quality of these Australian Imports. And I have no faith in the "rumors" that the G8 may eventually come to an American Plant. It to expensive to build here, they are scrambling to keep what plants they have left in North America as it is. They just cant afford it anymore. They are financially hemorrhaging . If you are dead set on buying American, look for some awesome deals on '07'* in the near future. I have been reading a new round of rebates and incentives are coming out as they try to keep their head above water. RIP Detroit. You were great. but nothing lasts forever. Especially patience for substandard quality and workmanship.
07-07-2007, 11:02 AM
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The Unions have alot to do with it, For Sure. As a IBEW member, it amazes me what new housing is costing. Out in the Cincinnati area where I have a house, it cost $250,000-500,00 to get into a new developement. And people rely on two professional incomes, 40 year mortgages, and second mortgages before they even get in. In the past I was always a strong Union supporter, and loving the payscale. But now retired and looking at the present and into the future. We have become a spoiled work force that only cares about ourselves and how much more can my union squeak out of employers to pay for my toys. The Point of this is Yes the Unions have the Big 3 over a barrel and threw away the vaseline. It drives them to cut costs at all possible ways. As Corporate pencils pushers crunch the numbers for Health and Retirement costs in the near future, impending doom is very clear. There is no way out. More and more substandard parts are coming from China and the Unions have the workers and corporations at each others throats, so pride and consistent work ethics are a thing of the past. Often it is to fill the Union leaders own egos and pockets. and has little to do with workers welfare and benefits. Workers dont see the paperwork thats say 5 minus 6 is a -1. And think their paradise in the 'burbs will last forever.
07-07-2007, 02:09 PM
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Not only unions, but for the longest time GM has been mismanaged. Whoever allowed these common problems to persist all these years needs to be fired. Unfortunately corporate brown-nosing prevents that which needs to be done.
I love the Bonneville, and I want to love GM. I am a GM fan and I want them to succeed. But with all of these quality issues, especially the NO-DUH ones like LIM gaskets, its really putting a strain on my loyalty. GM deserves the rut they are in, because of the management and the unions. Bob Lutz isnt doing enough, and Rick Wagoner HAS to go!
I dont trust magazines like Consumer Reports or Car and Driver because they are always biased against domestics. But many of the criticisms against GM is warranted. And after having multiple issues with the A/C system on my 93 (Over $2000+ spent on it in its lifetime) and then finding out about the "stainless steel" rusty brake lines on my 96, LIM gaskets, and GM in general being the last auto companies to galvanize their bodies, I can definitely see how people can bitch about GM'* quality, and since then I am no longer a fanboy.
Its going to take alot for me to be a fanboy again, and its going to take even more for GM to turn around and fix things. But given how the current corporate managers are glued to their seats, I fear the only change we will begine to see at that place is when GM is bankrupt, and then they will be absolutely forced to play their cards right.
I love the Bonneville, and I want to love GM. I am a GM fan and I want them to succeed. But with all of these quality issues, especially the NO-DUH ones like LIM gaskets, its really putting a strain on my loyalty. GM deserves the rut they are in, because of the management and the unions. Bob Lutz isnt doing enough, and Rick Wagoner HAS to go!
I dont trust magazines like Consumer Reports or Car and Driver because they are always biased against domestics. But many of the criticisms against GM is warranted. And after having multiple issues with the A/C system on my 93 (Over $2000+ spent on it in its lifetime) and then finding out about the "stainless steel" rusty brake lines on my 96, LIM gaskets, and GM in general being the last auto companies to galvanize their bodies, I can definitely see how people can bitch about GM'* quality, and since then I am no longer a fanboy.
Its going to take alot for me to be a fanboy again, and its going to take even more for GM to turn around and fix things. But given how the current corporate managers are glued to their seats, I fear the only change we will begine to see at that place is when GM is bankrupt, and then they will be absolutely forced to play their cards right.
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